I've never seen that Cala concept before... I've seen and like the Concept S though...

Demon Ryu wrote:

originalando wrote: dont forget that there are 2 F430's, american and european, the european is faster due to the lack of regulations, so make sure you are using the right statistics, and since BC is european they will obviously use the faster and European one!!! (im not saying anyone is wrong, im just making sure you all understand this before u get too far into it)   Wouldn't that mean the Gallardo is "regulated" as well?? Therefore it would be faster in Europe than N.A version? I still feel like the Lambos got the short end of the stick....

it all depends on what the gallardo has, it might not have anything that is illegal in america, just because one foreign car has something illegal here, doesnt mean they all do, all i know though is that whatever was changed on the 430, mad it significantly slower in the states

Except all Lambos imported from EU to North America DO need to go through modifications, Furthermore no mag in the EU area has tested the F430 doing 3.9

If you want to look at a realistic comparison of these cars real world performance unrestricted check out this site.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/powerlaps/

Although the F430 isn't on there it was tested not long ago and was .1 sec slower than the 360 Challenge Stradale. According to the Ferrari test driver the 430 would be quicker were it wearing the pirelli's supplied on the 360 rather than the Bridgestones Ferrari are now using.

As you can see there the Gallardo is quite a bit slower than the 360cs as is the Murcielago. Hope that puts some decent perspective on things.

Except that the stigs were different persons that set those lap times and also doesn't take weather and road onditions into account which makes the top gear "powerlaps" useless benchmark for "real world performance. Don't tell me you think that the Pagani Zonda is slower than the F430 because it set a slower time than the F430.

I watched the shows and the gallardo and 360 were tested by same stig in same conditions. F430 again tested in good conditions by the same stig (it's only changed once). Ok the list doesn't show some of the tests done in rain. The only difference in tests with the Zonda though was the driver. The pagani was one of the first cars to be featured and set a dry weather time which people were invited to try and beat.

It's a bit more realistic than using 0-60 times logged by a magazine as the whole basis for a cars acceleration rating from 0 through to max speed which i would guess is what Bizarre will be using. (plenty of cars out there geared to get decent 0-60 times then die off ,older impreza's could get impressive 0-60 times but get asthmatic over 100)

Reading through some of your previous comment's i'm a bit astounded. Manufacturers figures incorrect (i've got a magazine showing a tester getting exactly the same times as the ferrari test drivers quoted times for the Enzo's 0-60 and 1/4 mile) so probably fair to say that their other times will be pretty accurate.

Then the 4wd better than rwd comment lmfao. 4wd is for people who don't really know how to drive a car quickly.  Face it, most lambo owners are posers at the end of the day pretty much goes the same with porsches too. Although the quickest porsches are rwd ;-)

If 4wd was so good why is it not used in many tarmac race series? f1, indy, nascar, btcc

Enzo would NEED the GET 3.4 from 0-60 its Ferrari's Halo car they would be HUMILIATED if Enzo did not achieve those times. 4WD HAS better grip, why did you think the Austrailians wanted the R32 Skyline BANNED at the Australia's Group A Touring Car Championship???   4WD is probably a HUGE part of the equation.

Your arguments just don't stack up. So one manaufacturer underquotes their times and the other overquotes theirs? I know lower down in the car industry they do this to squeeze their cars into a lower insurance group but seen as both lamborghinis and ferraris are in the top insurance group not really gonna make a lot of difference.

Maybe you're accusing the Lamborghini test driver of not being good enough to get the best out of the car? Sounds like the usual conspiracy theories to me.

As for why the R32 skyline being banned it may have something to do with all the electronics in the drive system would give an unfair advantage over other competitors 4wd or not. Same reason traction control and dynamic suspension were banned from formula 1.

The other problem with your argument is that the skyline tries to put as much drive to the back wheels as possible going through a corner as nissan know rwd is best for handling. the diff doesn't allow 100% rwd though.

Simple fact is that providing power to the wheels that are steering the car will reduce grip and efficiency. Anyone building thoroughbred race cars knows this.

 

 

Lamborghinis have RWD Bias in their AWD also (although it does understeer), here is a list of cars that set times at Nurburgring found on VW vortex

7:06 --- BMW M3 GTR, 24hrs, test session, Jörg Müller (2003)
7:19 --- Radical SR3 Turbo (2003), >>> Link
7:20* -- Opel Astra DTM V8 Coupe, set-up for 24hrs race (sport auto 2003) *estimated
7:25 --- Alzen Motorsport Porsche 996, 24hrs race, Uwe Alzen
7:28 --- Porsche Carrera GT, Walther Röhrl, Autobild July 2004 >>> Link
7:32.4 -- Porsche Carrera GT, definitive time by Horst Von Saurma
7:32.5 - Gemballa Porsche GTR 600 EVO, Wolfgang Kaufmann (2001) >>> Link
7:36 --- Porsche Carrera GT, factory test driver Walther Röhrl (2002)
7:40* -- Porsche Carrera GT, *estimated time on cold and partially wet track (2003)
7:40 --- Mercedes Benz McLaren SLR, Klaus Ludwig, Autobild July 2004 >>> Link
7:42 --- Radical 1500 SR3 (2002)
7:43 --- TechArt GT Street (2001)
7:43 --- Porsche 996 911 GT3 RS, factory test driver Walter Rohrl, MOTOR Magazine
7:43.5 - Lamborghini Murcielago (Autocar magazine, 2002)
7:44 --- Pagani Zonda C12S (2003)
7:45 --- Gemballa Porsche GTR 600 (2000)
7:46 --- Porsche 996 GT2
7:46 --- SHK Porsche 993 GT2, 652 PS (1999)
7:47 --- Porsche 996 GT3 RS, 381PS (996) (2004)
7:49 --- Porsche 996 GT3 Cup
7:50 --- BMW E46 M3 CSL (08/2003)
7:50 --- Blitz Supra, 750 PS, Herbert Schürg (1997)
7:50 --- Honda RC30, Helmut Daehne (1993)
7:50 --- Lamborghini Murcielago (06/2002)
7:52 --- Gemballa Porsche 911 Le Mans (1995)
7:52 --- Lamborghini Gallardo E-Gear (12/2003)
7:52 --- Mercedes Benz SLR McLaren (06/2004)
7:54 --- Porsche GT3 (996) (2003)
7:55 --- Caterham R500 Superlight (2002)
7:56 --- Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale (02/2004)
7:56 --- Porsche 996 Turbo
7:56 --- Chevrolet Corvette C6 (tested by Dave Hill)
7:57 --- Lotec Porsche 993 Turbo, 600 PS, racing suspension
7:59 --- Porsche 911 Carrera S (997) (Performance Chassis) (Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
8:02 --- Porsche 911 Carrera S (997) (Sport PASM setting) (Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
8:03 --- Porsche 996 GT3 (1999)
8:04 --- Lamborghini Diablo GT (07/2000)
8:05 --- Ferrari 575M Maranello F1 (12/2002)
8:05 --- Porsche 911 Carrera S (997) (Normal PASM setting)(Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
8:06 --- Mercedes Benz SL55 AMG
8:06 --- Caterham 7 Superlight R, Robert Nearn
8:07 --- Ferrari 550 Maranello (06/1998)
8:09 --- Honda NSX-R 3.2 (08/2002)
8:09 --- Ferrari 360 Modena (10/1999)
8:09 --- Lamborghini Diablo SV (no ABS?)
8:10 --- Chrysler Viper GTS, 411PS, UK-Spec, no ABS (10/1997)
8:10 --- Donkervoort D8 180R
8:12 --- Mercedes Benz SL55 AMG (04/2002)
8:12 --- Porsche 993 Turbo
8:13 --- Lotus Esprit Sport 350, 354 PS (05/1999)
8:13 --- Dodge Viper SRT-10, 506 PS (10/2004)
8:15 --- Ruf 911 CTR 2, 520 PS
8:15*-- Holden GTS (2000), *estimated
8:15 --- Porsche 911 Carrera 2 (997) (Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
8:16 --- AC-Schnitzer E36 M3 CLS II, 350 PS (11/1997)
8:17 --- Aston Martin Vanquish (2003)
8:17 --- Porsche 996 C2
8:18 --- BMW Z8, 400 PS (08/2000)
8:18 --- Chevrolet Corvette Z05 Commemorative Edition, 344 PS (09/2003)
8:18 --- Ferrari F355 (06/1997)
8:20 --- Audi RS6 (2002)
8:22 --- BMW E46 M3 (12/2000)
8:22 --- BMW M Coupe, 321 PS (10/1998)
8:22 --- Mercedes-Benz C55 (07/2004)
8:23 --- Aston Martin DB7 GT (2003)
8:23 --- Porsche 996 Carrera 4
8:24 --- Subaru Impreza WRX STi (2004)
8:25 --- Audi RS4 375 HP
8:25 --- Callaway C12
8:25 --- Mitsubishi Carisma GT Evo VI (11/1999)
8:25 --- Mitsubishi Carisma GT Evo VII (11/2002)
8:26 --- Mercedes Benz SLK 32 AMG (05/2001)
8:26 --- Nissan 350Z (2003)
8:28 --- BMW M5, 400 PS(also confirmed by Motor Commodore magazine, 2000)
8:28 --- Nissan Skyline GTR, 277 PS
8:28 --- Porsche 993 Carrera 2
8:29 --- Mercedes Benz CLK 55 AMG (05/2000)
8:29 --- Audi S4 4.2 Avant (11/2003)
8:30 --- Maserati Coupé Cambiocorsa (10/2002)
8:31 --- Ferrari F355 GTS, 380 PS
8:32 --- BMW M Roadster, 321 PS (09/1997)
8:32 --- BMW Z4 3.0 SMG (05/2003)
8:32 --- Porsche Boxster S
8:32 --- Volkswagen Golf R32
8:34 --- Acura NSX, 276 PS
8:34 --- BMW Z3 Coupé 3.0i, 231 PS (04/2001)
8:35 --- BMW M3 Coupe, 321 PS
8:35 --- Brabus-Mercedes Benz C V8 Sportcoupé (02/2002)
8:36 --- BMW E36 M3 EVO, 321 PS
8:36 --- Alpina-BMW B3 3.3 Coupé (07/1999)
8:37 --- Maserati 3200GT (2002)
8:37 --- Mercedes Benz C32 AMG (09/2001)
8:37 --- Nissan Skyline GTR V-Spec, 350 PS
8:37 --- Subaru Impreza GT Turbo
8:37 --- Honda NSX 3.0 (07/1991)
8:38 --- Honda NSX 3.2 (08/1997)
8:38 --- Mercedes Benz SL500 (12/2001)
8:38 --- Porsche 996 Carrera, 296 PS
8:38 --- Brabus-Mercedes Benz CLK 5.8 (12/1998)
8:39 --- Honda S2000 (01/2000)
8:39 --- Morgan Aero 8 (04/2003)
8:40 --- Holden GTS, on an in and out lap (2000)
8:40 --- Chevrolet Corvette C5 Targa Automatic (07/1997)
8:41 --- Aston Martin DB7 (1999)
8:41 --- Audi S3, 210 PS (06/1999)
8:42 --- Audi S4, 265 PS (08/1998)
8:42 --- Lotus Exige (11/2000)
8:43 --- Honda Integra Type R (12/2000)
8:44 --- Chevrolet Corvette C5
8:45 --- Chevrolet Corvette, 339 PS, automatic
8:46 --- Porsche 993 Carrera S, 285 PS
8:47 --- Honda Civic Type-R, 200 PS (11/2001)
:49 --- Jaguar XKR Coupe (07/1998)
8:49 --- Renault Clio Sport V6
8:49 --- Audi TT 1.8T quattro Coupé, 225 PS (11/1998)
8:50* -- Mercedes Benz E55 AMG (2000)
8:51 --- Mercedes Benz C43 AMG (02/1998)
8:52 --- Mercedes Benz CLK 430
8:58 --- Lotus Esprit Turbo SE (07/1991)
9:09 --- Volkswagen Golf V6 4Motion

Why would the Gallardo have lower stats when it OUTPREFORMED BOTH 360 CS (by 4 seconds) AND 550M (by 12 seconds!!!) Bizzare if you are reading this you know SOMETHING is VERY wrong with the stats of LAMBOS in the game, even if they are in Class D, they are supposed to be at the TOP of that teir

There's no information on who is doing these lap times but I can only assume that it's different people, different days etc on a very very long track.

On a 13 mile track I would imagine 4 seconds is very easy to make up or lose and any sort of headwind down the back straight at nordschliefe would put a huge dent in your top sped and therefore time. Can you also guarantee that the drivers were unimpeded at every stage of their lap? Last time I heard it was a public track that anyone could go on if they had a handful of euro's in their pocket.

The problem is obvious if you look at these 2 results

7:40 --- Mercedes Benz McLaren SLR, Klaus Ludwig, Autobild July 2004 >>> Link

7:52 --- Mercedes Benz SLR McLaren (06/2004)

Same car 12 seconds difference.

At least in the example I gave i'd witnessed all 4 of the laps all in the same conditions with 3 cars driven by the same driver and no-one else out on the track at the same time.

With regards to the 4wd/rwd argument are you now saying that you admit that rwd is the best setup for cornering/grip?

Grip yes, handling.... depends on the driver :D, if RWD is so grippy they wouldn't need 4WD for rally sport would they, EVO and STIs wouldn't even have them. But Lambo does indeed have a rear bias 4WD. Check http://nurburgring.de/?rubrik=rekorde&lang=eng the times done on those cars are by Horst von Saurma (chief editor of German Mag "Sport Auto." ) Can you really say there wasn't ANY factors on the Top Gear track??? Heres an article on a diablo tested on Road and Track mag, it definetly DOES NOT BELONG in Class D 

 

Heres something from Motortrend Car mag

Ferrari 575M

0-60: 4.16

1/4 mile 12.26@118.58

600-ft slalom @ 66.2 mph

 

Diablo 6.0

0-60: 3.4

1/4 mile 11.8@120.9

600-ft slalom @ 70 mph

So if the Diablo is preforming as such.... why does the 575 and 360 CS have better stats?

 

Rallying is a completely different beast to track driving hence the 4wd cars. You need grip from as many wheels as possible to start/stop sliding.

As for the car list you just gave me again. there are glaring holes in it. OK same driver but then you look at his times some good, some bad compared with the other list. Diablo and 360 get same time on that list.

A 13 mile track is a real challenge to drive perfectly every time in different cars.

A 1min 20 track however can be lapped plenty of times in a session getting a feel for the car and remembering the best way to take the corners easily. There will be factors on any track of course but having seen all three lap times ran (360CS/430/gallardo) they were done in the same weather by the same driver and it's not a one shot lap. It's the best lap time in the session.

You've quoted some figures but why the hell would lamborghini advertise the same car at over .5 seconds slower to 60 than this magazine claims? 3.95 for diablo 6.0 on larmborghini.com They only quote the diablo gtr (rwd by the way) at 3.5 secs and yet this magazine claims 3.4 for a 6.0? P.S. the lambo has 60/40 split on the awd system still very innefficient.

Sounds like this magazine has some serious flaws in it's performance figures.

You obviously have a great passion for lambo's and i'm not saying their slow cars by any means but looking at the stats that have been awarded in pgr3 i reckon they're pretty much spot on. I doubt they've got personal favourites that have been "upped" to make particular cars look better. They've probably got more data than either of us could gather together.

 

The Diablo SV(RWD) got something like 8:09???? That Diablo was made in 1997 and hence did not have the upgrades that the latter Diablos get ( ABS airbags etc etc) 0 to 60 can vary from person to person Lamborghini claims that the car launches from 0-60 in 3.8 while others have done 3.6 in Mags (Road and Track supercar shootout or was it something else I'll look it up) M3s were rated at 5.0 from 0-60 while many have gotten 4.7 or 4.6 at launch. Maybe it was the car itself but yes some comapanies DO underate their engines just so it could give mag testers the ww factor.

Anyone see that video with the car select stuff and see that unlockable concept car in the E class made by NISSAN?  I bet that's the 2005 Nissan GTR Proto Concept.

I would have linked to gtrproto.com but I think they closed down the site and sunk back into secrecy.

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